Whoa...MODS now? - Guild Wars Forums

Bekkr · Aug 22, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Been playing other stuff for a while, and thought I'd have a look here and see what's new... and...... mods? Hmm...

Maybe it's just me, but this UI mod stuff, while "cool", sure seems to run counter to the idea of what GW used to be. Are all of you really okay with this stuff? Cheat your way to GMC... adrenaline "metering"? Seems a bit of an advantage to me, no matter how slight.

Man, I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of granduer...

My 2g.
-B.

Xenex Xclame · Aug 22, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Yes , you are right,first they say any kind of modifications are bad , then they say its ok.

Am i ok with it? No not really , but the only reason is because Anet were telling us that it was not allowed for so long and now all of a sudden they say its ok, i mean if they have said.

If they (anet ) really is ok with all this they should just release a program built by them that allows us to change certain aspects easy, like when they change the UI for no aparent reason -_- , we could go back to what it was before.

Ok to the point.
Anet Can sure change its mind fast......
Do i care about these mods?No not yet, i don't think the advantages are that big yet.

lucifer_uk · Aug 22, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Any changes are involved in the rendering of the game and Dx. The changed cannot be seen by anyone else and will not effect anyone else.

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Aug 22, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Anet never gave their "ok" to modding. They're tolerating it. But only as long as no harm is done:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

"To all modders: It's important to note that the parameters concerning the use of third-party programs do still apply. We cannot condone the use of such programs, and we cannot support the accounts of those who may be negatively impacted in using such programs. That's called the If it eats your hard drive and blows up your refrigerator, don't call us policy.

Honestly, though, as previously stated, it is unlikely that we would actively pursue or action those who use such programs in a positive manner, that is, those whose only interest is creating benign mods of our games. Keep in mind that occasionally people get creative and might bring up the use of a harmless program to attempt to mask other harmful activities. We see that with other situations, such as where they say "But I was only using an alternative OS, why was I blocked?" and we discover they are using major bot programs.

If you feel that this creates a "mixed message," then I guess we should discuss that concern. I can understand where the strict "Don't do that" is clearer than "We can't say you can do that, but we won't take action if you do choose to do it." There are some cases where it's not black and white. One example that comes to mind is the use of emulators to play Guild Wars. We develop only for the PC, but others play on other systems and that's totally ok. However, if they develop difficulties, our Support Team is not available to help them resolve those issues. So we don't prohibit the alternative, we simply decline to support it.

What I want to say above all about this matter is that if you're going to mod, have fun, but do stick with the benign and positive uses of the programs and create mods that impact the game only in ways that are fun and harmless. If there's more information to share, I will do so as soon as it becomes available to me."

Bolding and underlining by me for emphasis.

Now the question is, where does "fun and harmless" end and where does "cheating" start? We'll have to wait and see until Anet clarifies on that. So far, it seems, that line hasn't been crossed for them.

Hare Rama Pigeonus · Aug 22, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

I can't believe this... I remember the pain of scraping my armor on every wall of all three episode - including camping forever while eating marshmallows at the Jade Quarry - to get my legendary cartographer title.

Now there are mods to that faster? I don't understand how this is "tolerated".

BlueNovember · Aug 22, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifer_uk

Any changes are involved in the rendering of the game and Dx. The changed cannot be seen by anyone else and will not effect anyone else.

So that's all fine and Dandy then?

What if I were to release a pack that:
-> Made all pvp monk armour noticably Pink
-> Made ranger/rit spirits stand out
-> Made the Frenzy/Infuse (etc) animation more exagerated
-> Slightly increased the radar range
-> Added a UI display of spirit range on the radar
-> Made flag/relic carriers light up like christmas trees

All these are possible, and most already exist. I'm all in favour of user customisatiom, but this is something that's going to be exploited, if only on a superficial level.
Anet's non-commital stance on the issue is probably due to how hard it's going to be to detect. 3rd party programs? "Well, let's just see if anyone farms anything repeatedly then ban them" is the current bot policy, which is fair enough and reasonably affective. However how do you tell when a client is seeing different textures? Texmod sits between GW and you, not GW and the server. (Then again, I'm no expert on such detection, just speculating.)

Keithark · Aug 22, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

There is a mod that can help with cart? How does it work? I thought you could only change textures, colors, etc. Not sure I like a mod if it actually helps get titles..but not shure how it would help in getting that title.

MithranArkanere · Aug 22, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Cheating, for example, would start by making mods to reveal maps in underground areas, because that gives you advantaje over those who do not use mods.

But changing the skin of an armor, or the appearance of the GUI should not be a problem.

BlueNovember · Aug 22, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

There is a mod that can help with cart? How does it work? I thought you could only change textures, colors, etc. Not sure I like a mod if it actually helps get titles..but not shure how it would help in getting that title.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide...aphy_Made_Easy

Markaedw · Aug 22, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

those sound interesting, but when are they going to get around to changing the skin if the characters?

papryk · Aug 22, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

they should definitely forbid this....

Navaros · Aug 22, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekkr

Seems a bit of an advantage to me, no matter how slight.

There's been tons of people posting on this site they got banned for modding and only using "innocent mods". So whilst they may have an advantage in the short-term, it would seem that that advantage doesn't last very long before they get perma-banned.

silz · Aug 22, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Coming from an FPS background, I guess my outlook on this is a little different to most.

In a competative environment, be it 1v1, 8v8, 12v12 or whatever in the FPS scene, a change client side that gives "neon skins" or similar effect has always been frowned upon.

In the FPS scene the neon skin can lead to an autoaim bot that can lock onto the colour and pull the trigger for you for a one shot one kill scenario.

With that in mind, I split GW into the two realms of PvE and PvP.

Looking at PvE first, is there an advantage to an individual player by having an adrenaline monitor, spirit radius marker in the radar, 25,50 and 75% health points in the party window? No, not really, there is no-one (other than NPC) competing against you on the other side to get an advantage over.

Now I'm a GW PvE player, but I do at least recognise that the ability to do a client side mod to highlight in PvP all Monks in neon blue, mesmers a neon pink, warriors in yellow, ele's in red etc etc, can provide an advantage to the player using the mods in earlier identification of the foe. (Not saying that they would not be able to identify the foe's class anyway, just saying you can get an earlier identification)

I've got nothing against the ability to modify the asthetic look of your armor on your own screen (Stress to mod your own armor only), but when you can highlight others of a particular class in PvP or GvG (with work) and provide an early warning system of where the monk is (as an example) it is treading on dangerous ground.

In short modding your own look on your own screen isnt a problem, modding how others appear on your screen can provide you with an unfair COMPETATIVE advantage, and to be honest I'm amazed a-net have even "unofficially" said this type of modification is "OK".

I have differentiated between PvE and PvP for obvious reasons. PvE you are gaining an advantage over no "real" person, but in PvP using a skin modification can give you an advantage over your opposition if they are not doing the same. That advantage can only be being taken to gain a competative edge over the opposition outside what was originally intended by the games design and programming.

It may only be seen on the one clients screen, but who can honestly say seeing a character highlighted in neon blue as a monk, doesnt give you an advantage over distance, when compared to trying to see who is the monk at the limit of the view distance based on standard armor skins?

lakatz · Aug 22, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekkr

Been playing other stuff for a while, and thought I'd have a look here and see what's new... and...... mods? Hmm...

Maybe it's just me, but this UI mod stuff, while "cool", sure seems to run counter to the idea of what GW used to be. Are all of you really okay with this stuff? Cheat your way to GMC... adrenaline "metering"? Seems a bit of an advantage to me, no matter how slight.

Man, I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of granduer...

My 2g.
-B.

Cheat your way to GMC??? I must know. How is it possible to cheat one's way to GMC? I'll be so pissed if it's true. I worked hard to get to LGMC.

EDIT: I just saw the page BlueNovember linked to which I've seen before. A mod that makes comparison easier is not cheating. It's a great discovery. Are we cheating because we drive in cars and ride in planes now rather than travel everywhere by horse or boat? No.

I did the same thing with Photoshop laying my U maps over 100% maps and then using the difference layer mode. I helped others get their GMC by doing the same thing for them. And I did it with many others right here in this very forum. We weren't cheating. I'm happy that this particular mod was developed so that people who don't have photoshop can do their own comparisons and don't have to depend on others.

silz · Aug 22, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

Cheat your way to GMC??? I must know. How is it possible to cheat one's way to GMC? I'll be so pissed if it's true. I worked hard to get to LGMC.

It is now "legitimate" to use mods to change the standard fog/clouding on your "u" map so instead of just obscuring the map, the areas explored are clear, and the areas unexplored but reachable are say yellow, and the areas you can not reveal are say black, thus making it obvious where you need to go to get the title, rather than having to hug the edges on all areas over and over again trying to find the ellusive spot.

bobrath · Aug 22, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

For the GMC... it just takes the "pain" out of taking a screen shot, comparing it to (or have someone else compare for you) a "fully explored" map and then going back to that area and hugging the wall while simultaneously watching your U screen to see if some fog disappears and then flipping to your H screen to see if you managed to move that 99.8 to 99.9.

So, yes it shortcuts that process - but last I checked, having a LGMC was not game breaking... You still have to walk your character all over the entire map.

Regarding the usage in PvP (skin coloring, enhanced spell icons, etc), my experience over in the FPS shooter world is that mods such as this make average (and poor) players better, but the upper levels of players don't need (or would even use) such mods. They've already trained themselves to recognize the other less visible clues so they can seem to predict what you're going to do.

lakatz · Aug 22, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by silz

It is now "legitimate" to use mods to change the standard fog/clouding on your "u" map so instead of just obscuring the map, the areas explored are clear, and the areas unexplored but reachable are say yellow, and the areas you can not reveal are say black, thus making it obvious where you need to go to get the title, rather than having to hug the edges on all areas over and over again trying to find the ellusive spot.

I know. And that's what I'm saying. I got that same effect using the layers difference mode. The only area that has any color is the area that's different between the two maps, and I still had to do the work. There are still challenges even after you've identified the areas still fogged (which most people don't do until they're at least at 90% and it starts getting harder to find fog). There are places in Tyria, Cantha and Elona that you have to go over and over to hit them just right. Or you have to use NT to get into... or you have to go slow, etc.

It's not cheating unless those mods remove the fog from your map for you making the map instantly 100%.

LifeInfusion · Aug 22, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueNovember

So that's all fine and Dandy then?

What if I were to release a pack that:
-> Made all pvp monk armour noticably Pink
-> Made ranger/rit spirits stand out
-> Made the Frenzy/Infuse (etc) animation more exagerated
-> Slightly increased the radar range
-> Added a UI display of spirit range on the radar
-> Made flag/relic carriers light up like christmas trees

All these are possible, and most already exist. I'm all in favour of user customisatiom, but this is something that's going to be exploited, if only on a superficial level.
Anet's non-commital stance on the issue is probably due to how hard it's going to be to detect. 3rd party programs? "Well, let's just see if anyone farms anything repeatedly then ban them" is the current bot policy, which is fair enough and reasonably affective. However how do you tell when a client is seeing different textures? Texmod sits between GW and you, not GW and the server. (Then again, I'm no expert on such detection, just speculating.)

With regards to spirits, almost nobody cares. Most of them are used in gimmicks like Ritspike.
Making the Frenzy/Infuse (etc) animation more exaggerated is something that can have drastic effects though. You don't have to watch all the targets via Tabbing then.
Making flag/relic carriers light up like christmas trees has little effect other than when there are item spell users. The wielders of flags and relics run differently and have a more upright position when running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Cheating, for example, would start by making mods to reveal maps in underground areas, because that gives you advantage over those who do not use mods.

But changing the skin of an armor, or the appearance of the GUI should not be a problem.

I'm 99% sure someone's going to make a mod for that.

Texmod in PVE doesn't affect much. At the end of the day, the cartography mod just takes tedium out of difference maps in Photoshop. All UI mods don't affect anything, since you're just killing mobs.

Changing the skin of all PVP armors to be different fluorescent colors is an advantage. I mentioned this before on the official wiki, but people just brushed it off saying you can see it is a monk just by Tabbing or identifying the visual armor style. Nobody took into account the number of milliseconds for a player to process which armor is for what class compared to looking for colors. But this issue has long since passed and it is too late to change anything with regards to Texmod in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by papryk

they should definitely forbid this....

too late.

Chthon · Aug 22, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by silz

I split GW into the two realms of PvE and PvP.
...
Looking at PvE... No, not really, there is no-one (other than NPC) competing against you on the other side to get an advantage over.
...
In short modding your own look on your own screen isnt a problem, modding how others appear on your screen can provide you with an unfair COMPETATIVE advantage, and to be honest I'm amazed a-net have even "unofficially" said this type of modification is "OK"....
...in PvP using a skin modification can give you an advantage over your opposition if they are not doing the same.

I agree with your division between PvE and PvP on this issue.

I also agree 100% that you aren't competing against anyone in PvE, so it's a moot point there.

As for PvP:

The particular mod you're concerned about (highlighting all monks) strikes me as impossible. I'll have to check it out, but I have a very strong suspicion that other players' skins are generated on-the-fly, so there are no consistent handles to reference those textures by. Even if there were consistent handles, you'd have to mod every color variant for every armor set -- and that's a task that would take thousands of hours, and result in a very, very large mod file that would slow even the fastest PCs. I think you can safely dismiss this particular mod as out of the realm of possibility. I think it's also a good example of why you shouldn't be trusting hysterical anti-mod advocates on the issue of what's possible and what isn't.
When modding got the semi-official OK (or would it be an "official semi-OK"?), I don't think anyone - least of all a-net - realized how "deficient" the UI really was. Pickle sword mods were obvious. Cartography mods were a pleasant surprise. Some of the mods that arguably improve PvP play could be called "unsettling surprises." Though, as someone for whom lag often creates a larger advantage/disadvantage than all the presently extant mods put together, I'm not too concerned with anything I've seen yet. There just isn't a whole lot of "advantage" coming out of these mods - at least not any of the mods I've seen yet.
Insofar as they realized at all that it might give arguable PvP advantages, a-net made a shrewd move by bringing the modding community above ground. It's not technically possible for a-net to detect this sort of client-side mod. Nor is it technically feasible (or permissible from a privacy standpoint) for them to modify the client in a way that would detect it. That means that, if they were to "ban" modding, some people would still be modding, just not publicly. If mods that give arguable PvP advantages are going to exist no matter what, it's better that they are out in the open and reliable downloads are available on the forums for anyone who feels they need the "advantage" the mods give. Permitting what people were going to do anyway was a wise move on a-net's part that (insofar as mods give any advantage at all) levels the playing field as best it can be leveled.
To "put my money where my mouth is" on that last point: Show me any mod out there that you feel gives an unfair PvP advantage, and I will reproduce it and make it publicly available so that you can use it too. (But, please: (1) search the modding thread for it before asking me, (2) give me a screen shot or a precise description of exactly which textures are altered; I'm not going to waste my time trying to decipher poor descriptions or chase down rumors of mods that aren't possible, (3) post your request in the modding thread or by PM, and (4) bear in mind that I don't have unlimited time; I'm not going to undertake a very time-consuming mod unless I actually want it for my own personal use.)

Aug 22, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31	#1
Bekkr Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Australia Guild: [] Profession: N/	Whoa...MODS now? Been playing other stuff for a while, and thought I'd have a look here and see what's new... and...... mods? Hmm... Maybe it's just me, but this UI mod stuff, while "cool", sure seems to run counter to the idea of what GW used to be. Are all of you really okay with this stuff? Cheat your way to GMC... adrenaline "metering"? Seems a bit of an advantage to me, no matter how slight. Man, I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of granduer... My 2g. -B.

Aug 22, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45	#2
Xenex Xclame Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: DPX Profession: R/	Yes , you are right,first they say any kind of modifications are bad , then they say its ok. Am i ok with it? No not really , but the only reason is because Anet were telling us that it was not allowed for so long and now all of a sudden they say its ok, i mean if they have said. If they (anet ) really is ok with all this they should just release a program built by them that allows us to change certain aspects easy, like when they change the UI for no aparent reason -_- , we could go back to what it was before. Ok to the point. Anet Can sure change its mind fast...... Do i care about these mods?No not yet, i don't think the advantages are that big yet.

Aug 22, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54	#3
lucifer_uk Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Nottingham, England Guild: The Venerable Truth [TvT] The Venerable Alliance [TvH] [TvL] Profession: R/	Any changes are involved in the rendering of the game and Dx. The changed cannot be seen by anyone else and will not effect anyone else.

Aug 22, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10	#5
Hare Rama Pigeonus Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Feb 2007 Profession: Mo/	I can't believe this... I remember the pain of scraping my armor on every wall of all three episode - including camping forever while eating marshmallows at the Jade Quarry - to get my legendary cartographer title. Now there are mods to that faster? I don't understand how this is "tolerated".

Aug 22, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33	#7
Keithark Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Be Aggressive B E Aggressive [AGRO] Profession: E/Me	There is a mod that can help with cart? How does it work? I thought you could only change textures, colors, etc. Not sure I like a mod if it actually helps get titles..but not shure how it would help in getting that title.

Aug 22, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35	#8
MithranArkanere Underworld Spelunker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo Guild: Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO] Profession: E/	Cheating, for example, would start by making mods to reveal maps in underground areas, because that gives you advantaje over those who do not use mods. But changing the skin of an armor, or the appearance of the GUI should not be a problem.

Aug 22, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46	#10
Markaedw Desert Nomad Join Date: Nov 2005 Profession: N/	those sound interesting, but when are they going to get around to changing the skin if the characters?

Aug 22, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35	#11
papryk Jungle Guide Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Nancy Guild: The Autonomy[?????????]	they should definitely forbid this....

Aug 22, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50	#13
silz Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jan 2006 Guild: K I N D R E D S P I R I T S Profession: W/	Coming from an FPS background, I guess my outlook on this is a little different to most. In a competative environment, be it 1v1, 8v8, 12v12 or whatever in the FPS scene, a change client side that gives "neon skins" or similar effect has always been frowned upon. In the FPS scene the neon skin can lead to an autoaim bot that can lock onto the colour and pull the trigger for you for a one shot one kill scenario. With that in mind, I split GW into the two realms of PvE and PvP. Looking at PvE first, is there an advantage to an individual player by having an adrenaline monitor, spirit radius marker in the radar, 25,50 and 75% health points in the party window? No, not really, there is no-one (other than NPC) competing against you on the other side to get an advantage over. Now I'm a GW PvE player, but I do at least recognise that the ability to do a client side mod to highlight in PvP all Monks in neon blue, mesmers a neon pink, warriors in yellow, ele's in red etc etc, can provide an advantage to the player using the mods in earlier identification of the foe. (Not saying that they would not be able to identify the foe's class anyway, just saying you can get an earlier identification) I've got nothing against the ability to modify the asthetic look of your armor on your own screen (Stress to mod your own armor only), but when you can highlight others of a particular class in PvP or GvG (with work) and provide an early warning system of where the monk is (as an example) it is treading on dangerous ground. In short modding your own look on your own screen isnt a problem, modding how others appear on your screen can provide you with an unfair COMPETATIVE advantage, and to be honest I'm amazed a-net have even "unofficially" said this type of modification is "OK". I have differentiated between PvE and PvP for obvious reasons. PvE you are gaining an advantage over no "real" person, but in PvP using a skin modification can give you an advantage over your opposition if they are not doing the same. That advantage can only be being taken to gain a competative edge over the opposition outside what was originally intended by the games design and programming. It may only be seen on the one clients screen, but who can honestly say seeing a character highlighted in neon blue as a monk, doesnt give you an advantage over distance, when compared to trying to see who is the monk at the limit of the view distance based on standard armor skins?

Aug 22, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15	#16
bobrath Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Texas Guild: Scouts of Tyria	For the GMC... it just takes the "pain" out of taking a screen shot, comparing it to (or have someone else compare for you) a "fully explored" map and then going back to that area and hugging the wall while simultaneously watching your U screen to see if some fog disappears and then flipping to your H screen to see if you managed to move that 99.8 to 99.9. So, yes it shortcuts that process - but last I checked, having a LGMC was not game breaking... You still have to walk your character all over the entire map. Regarding the usage in PvP (skin coloring, enhanced spell icons, etc), my experience over in the FPS shooter world is that mods such as this make average (and poor) players better, but the upper levels of players don't need (or would even use) such mods. They've already trained themselves to recognize the other less visible clues so they can seem to predict what you're going to do.